Discussion:L'objet

"Les pronoms objets incorporés dans des prépositions, de type ac'hanon, anezhi ne peuvent être antéposés en zone préverbale qu'en trégorrois."

What are our sources for this?

At the moment, I find Stephens 1982: 2.6.3 on Treg., who does not cite anyone, and Schapansky 1996: 3.2 on it would seem from the context the Van. of Guemene, who also does not cite anyone and also argues that the restriction holds even of a + NP partitive subjects and objects in Van.

But all these examples fail to include doubling enclitics, unlike Hewitt's, naturally so for Stephens, because 3rd person doubling enclitics to prepositonal suffixes are limited in some areas that seem to include Treg., though not in Vann., and I don't know at the moment about current L.

But the page on the "pronoms echo" says, I cite:

"Le trégorrois permet d'antéposer un pronom objet incorporé dans une préposition pour les personnes 1 et 2. Un pronom écho est alors possible (Gros 1984:119: Ahanout-te a dapan, emezañ). L'asymétrie 1/2 vs. 3 personne sur l'objet focal préverbal est indépendant du pronom écho (contra Hewitt 2001)."

What does this mean? Does Gros give examples of preposing without echo pronouns, Ahanout a dapan? Or does he say that preposinig of 3rd person is impossible even with an echoic, *Anean-han a dapan, or something like that? That would be strange, unless he has _anean-han, gantan-han_ in the first place... And is whatever Gros says really contra Hewitt, who only asserts one restriction, "Avec emphase en position initiale, pour la 1e et 2e personne, il faut ajouter le pronom" when fronting the a-form -- I guess it really would be contra if Gros gives, Ahanout a dapan.

So do we have any reason to think that "ahanout-te a(?)/e(?) welan" is impossible in Leon or Guemene, or even "anezho-int ..." in those varieties that allow doubling here in the first place? And if that is possible, maybe we could even see what the rannig looks like in those varieties that keep the distinction at least in mutation -- which includes both Leon and Guemene.

--Wade (discussion) 3 mars 2021 à 08:17 (CET)

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• [LJ/12/12] Dans le chapitre "ditransitifs", le cas du breton diffère-t-il de l'anglais ?

I gave him the book = Je lui ai donné le livre = Roet am eus al levr dezhañ ?

> [MJ]: Oui. Dans cet exemple breton, le destinataire 3SGM apparaît intégré dans une préposition da (dezhañ). En anglais, il s'agit de deux arguments directs, une possibilité qui n'existe pas en breton.