Discussion:Emañ : Différence entre versions

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Re sujet défini:
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=== sujet défini ===
  
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--[[Utilisateur:Wade|Wade]] ([[Discussion utilisateur:Wade|discussion]]) 22 mars 2017 à 13:04 (CET)
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:
 
Dévri (dico Merser) donne sous "III. La forme emañ", des exx aves des sujets formellement indéfinis.
 
Dévri (dico Merser) donne sous "III. La forme emañ", des exx aves des sujets formellement indéfinis.
  
 
(Also note right after these exx, "na vezan mui en-unan - être sans conscience": na as infinitival negation?)
 
(Also note right after these exx, "na vezan mui en-unan - être sans conscience": na as infinitival negation?)
  
--[[Utilisateur:Wade|Wade]] ([[Discussion utilisateur:Wade|discussion]]) 22 mars 2017 à 13:04 (CET)
 
  
Sujet indefini prenegation
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=== Sujet indefini prenegation ===
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 +
--[[Utilisateur:Wade|Wade]] ([[Discussion utilisateur:Wade|discussion]]) 24 mars 2017 à 12:29 (CET):
  
 
Consider the following ex of indefinite subject with emañ if prenegation:
 
Consider the following ex of indefinite subject with emañ if prenegation:
  
Met va c’halon c’houllo / Zo chomet pell toc’hor./ Ha remed ebet n’edo kavet / Evit va fareañ.
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''Met va c’halon c’houllo / Zo chomet pell toc’hor./ Ha remed ebet n’edo kavet / Evit va fareañ.''
 
http://www.breizh.net/anjela/barzhonegou/39.php
 
http://www.breizh.net/anjela/barzhonegou/39.php
  
 
The relevant contrast is with:
 
The relevant contrast is with:
  
(evit fareañ va c'halon) n'ema/edo kavet remet ebet
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''(evit pareañ va c'halon) n'ema/edo kavet remet ebet''
  
 
which by standard descriptions is supposed to be out, i.e. like:
 
which by standard descriptions is supposed to be out, i.e. like:
  
an deiz war lerc'h emañ kavet an/*un den marv er park  
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''an deiz war lerc'h emañ kavet an/*un den marv er park''.
  
 
If the contrast is real, it does not matter if the passive is "impersonal" or not, since both prenegation and postverbal subjects should allow the same option of personal/impersonal passives.
 
If the contrast is real, it does not matter if the passive is "impersonal" or not, since both prenegation and postverbal subjects should allow the same option of personal/impersonal passives.
  
Theoretically, if pre-negation subjects with eman can be indefinite while postverbal ones in the same structure cannot, the prenegation ones do not seem to derive by movement from the postverbal ones but rather by base-generation (broad subjects).
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Theoretically, if pre-negation subjects with ''eman'' can be indefinite while postverbal ones in the same structure cannot, the prenegation ones do not seem to derive by movement from the postverbal ones but rather by base-generation (broad subjects).
 
 
--[[Utilisateur:Wade|Wade]] ([[Discussion utilisateur:Wade|discussion]]) 24 mars 2017 à 12:29 (CET)
 

Version du 24 mars 2017 à 20:20

sujet défini

--Wade (discussion) 22 mars 2017 à 13:04 (CET)

Dévri (dico Merser) donne sous "III. La forme emañ", des exx aves des sujets formellement indéfinis.

(Also note right after these exx, "na vezan mui en-unan - être sans conscience": na as infinitival negation?)


Sujet indefini prenegation

--Wade (discussion) 24 mars 2017 à 12:29 (CET):

Consider the following ex of indefinite subject with emañ if prenegation:

Met va c’halon c’houllo / Zo chomet pell toc’hor./ Ha remed ebet n’edo kavet / Evit va fareañ. http://www.breizh.net/anjela/barzhonegou/39.php

The relevant contrast is with:

(evit pareañ va c'halon) n'ema/edo kavet remet ebet

which by standard descriptions is supposed to be out, i.e. like:

an deiz war lerc'h emañ kavet an/*un den marv er park.

If the contrast is real, it does not matter if the passive is "impersonal" or not, since both prenegation and postverbal subjects should allow the same option of personal/impersonal passives.

Theoretically, if pre-negation subjects with eman can be indefinite while postverbal ones in the same structure cannot, the prenegation ones do not seem to derive by movement from the postverbal ones but rather by base-generation (broad subjects).